Ezekiel RodofiliFifteen years is a long time to be doing anything, and it’s not much time at all. Art As Catharsis is celebrating fifteen years of its pursuit of music with three shows in Brisbane, Melbourne and Sydney.
Following on from our last conversation, I was fortunate enough to speak to Lachlan R. Dale about the label now and the upcoming shows.
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Ez: This is the fifteen-year celebration of Art As Catharsis, and your perspective on the label is probably a bit different now compared to five years ago.
Lachlan: I think the label’s gone through many different iterations and phases. I think there’s been a core idea that’s come throughout fifteen years, which is just about supporting community, supporting music that we think is creative or urgent or experimental or progressive. I think that core hasn’t really changed, but over the years we’ve expanded the different genres we were working with.
There was a period where I was quite interested in exploring the Australian jazz scene. Eventually I splintered off and created a second label for world music. I think as I’ve aged and kind of wanted to explore different forms of musical expression, the label has followed in some cases.
I’ve tried to work out what our ultimate goal or goals should be. That was a lot of pressure for a long time around growing the label, getting international distribution deals, getting a lot of publicity. There are pressures and ideas of success, and I think after fifteen years I’ve almost come full circle just supporting musical community and letting a lot of that stuff take care of itself to some degree. Not fretting over it or trying to do something different above and beyond what I usually do.
Ez: Is that part of the reason why you hit a period of burnout with the label?
Lachlan: We’ve been consistently releasing music for fifteen years. And often too much music *laughs* Sometimes fifteen releases in a year, you know?
I think you’re talking about live shows. Before the pandemic I put a lot of time and energy to try to build a scene unity, and we had built that up so it was quite healthy in 2019, summer 2020. We could put on a show and we started getting good numbers, were able to pay bands well and actually pay myself something. Then during the pandemic that all went away. We emerged out the other side, 2022, 2023 with probably forty percent of the audience we went into the pandemic with. People moved away, people had families, people had disengaged with live music, and I found that really hard.
I’d really put a lot of energy and money into cultivating this local Sydney scene, and so I think the question of rebuilding, it was just too much for me. So I took a break and gave it some time, and to be honest I’m not trying to do that in the same way as I’m more focused on building audiences for Eastern classical music. A more ongoing effort there.
So for Sydney it’s more just servicing and supporting community rather than being a little more bold and trying to create and expand existing communities. I’m forty years old now, and the style we release and engage with, there’s a bit of a generational drop off, and I don’t wanna fight against that bigger tide.
Ez: Do you think it is actually generational drop off, or just not quite grappling the means of reaching a younger audience yet?
Lachlan: I think there’s been a drop off in the styles of music we enjoy, definitely. Whether you think about post-rock, post-metal, doom metal, the weird rhythmic progressive thing we enjoy, the world of Secret Chiefs 3 and [John] Zorn; all of these things are tied to specific generations and I don’t think they’re reaching the same way.
Maybe the one change I see is that the success of Plini is bringing people back to instrumental progressive music. That that’s probably the first real example I’ve seen that, other than, say like, Hiatus Kaiyote building an experimental hip-hip jazz kind of thing ten years ago. So I think there’s a big generational element there.
Ez: I can’t deny that, and that’s probably because when these styles of performance and sound and music were getting big, when they were still quite novel and establishing with a very specific blueprint. However, I would also argue that there’s plenty of people, people younger than us who are looking for this kind of music. Whether they’ve found it or not is another story entirely because the avenues of discovery have changed.
Lachlan: I feel like it’s been difficult to kind of replenish the label with younger bands in some ways. Ben Shannon, who runs the label up in Brisbane and kinda works semi-autonomously, he’s connected to the [Queensland] Conservatorium up there. He teaches and engages with a lot of young musicians. I think that even with that, finding people who have a similar conception of how music can function or what it can do has been a little difficult, which to me is ultimately fine. I think I’m just dropping a lot of these bigger goals in going back to why did I start in the first place. It’s not to make it my job or earn money. It’s just to support community.
Ez: Would it be fair to say that Art As Catharsis focusing on community is also sort of going “Let be, they’ll discover it eventually”?
Lachlan: I think we’ve always been a label really animated by digital media. I started AAC because I saw an opportunity with Bandcamp. I was studying the music industry in university, and I was looking at the ways industry models have changed. Can’t remember which subject that was.
I was very engaged with that and very excited about the idea that these bigger label systems were kind of collapsing, and there being openings for independent bands to get a hold of things. There also were smaller publications getting bigger and bigger followings. There was a big moment of change and hope and openness, and part of that for me was seeing Bandcamp’s model that, unlike, say, iTunes which was taking 80%, 70% of the revenue, Bandcamp was taking 10%. So we built on that platform of opportunity, and I think equally social media advertising, that’s been a cornerstone of promoting releases and shows as well.
Those things have been quite consistent over fifteen years.
Ez: So then, post-pandemic… obviously there’s your drive, there’s Ben Shannon keeping the label alive in Brisbane. Why do you think that AAC keeps functioning? Why do you keep coming back to it?
Lachlan: People keep coming to me with really excellent music *laughs* I hear something, I’m like “Ah, God dammit, I’m gonna have to release this”. And sometimes I help connect them with other labels or explore other opportunities. I just want what’s right for the music and the artist.
Even now there are bands working on new material, like Instrumental (adj.) and Helu, which makes me very excited. I want to represent that music and try and share that with the world. That still really animates me.
Ez: There’s still a drive there.
Lachlan: The drive’s there. There’s been a lot of searching about what’s the final model or form of this label. What’s our stylistic focus? What can we offer artists?
I’ve done co-releases with other record labels in Australia, The UK, North America, New Zealand. I’ve tried to grow physical distribution networks. I’ve experimented with a lot of things but I think I’ve come back to this core offering of “Yeah we build community through email and social media. We prioritise Bandcamp.” We obviously have a lot of press contacts.
I think the number of independent publications are dwindling and just being okay with that and accepting that has been part of the process.
Ez: So do you think then that, in your accepting not so much things are changing so much as things are getting tougher, has it made it easier for you to keep the label going?
Lachlan: It’s hard for me to think about it. I don’t necessarily think that things are heaps tougher than they were fifteen years ago for obscure artists. Maybe they are a little bit. I’m not sure.
I think just being confident in what I do offer and being satisfied with that is probably where I’m at instead of worrying that it needs to be bigger and needs to be more. I think that kind of striving is something I’ve let go of to a degree, and maybe just displaced it to my other record label *laughs*
Ez: I would suspect though that you’re a bit restless even though you’ve got a firm idea of what you want AAC to be now. I also think that perhaps it’s restlessness that helps keep it going. And if you keep coming across music that makes you want to put it out on AAC, you’re obviously listening to it and discovering new stuff. I don’t think that if you were digging your heels in or just willing to sit still, that wouldn’t be the case.
Lachlan: Yeah, I mean… I love new music still. I spend quite a lot of time every month looking for new music, and it’s work *laughs* and it takes hours. I try and listen to everyone who sends submissions to the label. I try to listen to recommendations that people send over, so that hasn’t changed for me. I’ve met most of my friends through the music industry, playing shows and touring. I still play shows, I still tour, I still put on events. That’s still a really important part of my life. That hasn’t changed at all, but maybe accepting what shape that has now is part of this newer phase.
I don’t need to be selling a thousand, ten thousand records, and I think what’s required in chasing a goal like that is to compromise on the music, which I have done over the years *laughs* occasionally. And ultimately I haven’t enjoyed those experiences, so I think just coming back to supporting the weird music that I connect with is where I am now.
Every release is an interesting kind of calculation. There has to be some level of interest and personal engagement. There are some records which I love dearly and are some are my favourite of all time. Some are like “Yeah, this is cool, I like the people, I wanna encourage them”. Some are just interesting opportunities to explore, something new.
Ez: So the fifteen-year anniversary shows…
Lachlan: Sydney is the smallest of the three shows, and I felt like I had the fewest options in terms of bands in Sydney, which is interesting to me. I lived in Melbourne for eighteen months, but even through that engagement I discovered all these great artists or solidified friendships with musicians and I’m really, really proud of that.
Brisbane is a reflection of all the work Ben’s been doing. I really love Hope Drone, and I’m really glad to see them in there, for instance. But with Sydney, these are the core bands that have been really important to the label, but maybe also illustrate that challenge of finding new bands of these styles in the Sydney scene.
Ez: Those bands are around. They’re just yet to be discovered by you, I guess.
Would it be fair to say that the Sydney show, whilst the smallest, is possibly the most emotionally affective for you?
Lachlan: It’s pure AAC. Instrumental (Adj.) and Helu are two of my favourite bands in the world. Brian Campeau as well. Those three artists, I just love them so much. And I need to insert myself there so Black Aleph‘s playing, and I’ve been quite impressed by Migret who are a newish band.
Sometimes I feel like my job is helping to prod bands to progress, to get back together, to write material. “Hey guys, here’s a show. Guess you better rehearse!” *laughs* I’ve played that role with a lot of bands over the years, and it’s one I’m happy playing because it does encourage them to get up and play more, and Instrumental is certainly one of those bands. I just selfishly really want to see them play, and I really want them to develop new music.
I’m so happy that Brendan Sloan of Convulsing agreed to play in Melbourne. There are so many fantastic bands. Hopefully I don’t have to do too much work running them. Hopefully I can just sit around and enjoy them. Gonna discover a few artists as well through this, which is gonna be cool.
Ez: A lot of the… it has been an intense year for you, but I imagine that a lot of the focus is getting to the shows, and even though you’re anticipating them and excited for them, you’re kind of wanting them to be done. Do you think that after this it’s possibly gonna create a clean slate for AAC?
Lachlan: I disagree with your statement, because I can’t wait for these shows! I’m taking time off, I’m hanging out in Melbourne, I’m hanging out in Brisbane. It’s gonna be awesome. It’s much more fun than doing work. I’ll be seeing people. That’s the good stuff.
I don’t feel like the showcases have been that stressful. I’m really excited to see people. I’m excited to be playing new Black Aleph material.
In some ways fifteen years felt like a milestone we had to mark. We were supposed to do a residency for a whole month at Lazybones for the ten-year anniversary. Then Covid reared its head again so we just did a more humble show.
Is it a clean slate? I don’t think so. I think it’s a good time to reconnect with all these bands, reconnect with audiences and continue on doing what we’re doing. Hopefully just putting on great gigs with good bands, and have a few people attending. That’d be lovely.