Ezekiel RodofiliAs part of their tour in support of Nightmares as Extensions of the Waking State, Katatonia are playing a run of shows in New Zealand and Australia. I was afforded the opportunity to talk with Jonas about the album.
Katatonia’s upcoming tour dates are viewable here.
Their social media viewable here and here.
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Ez: From your perspective, what does Nightmares as Extensions of the Waking State mean?
Jonas: To me it represents things that we all go through in life that are on the darker side. It could be seen as nightmares that you can’t really wake up from and say “That was just a dream”. I think the songs on the record tie into that, describing situations or conditions that are dark and sort of feels like a nightmare when you go through them. Eventually things get better, also in real life which is fortunate, but you know, it’s just a description of that.
Ez: How did you go about sequencing the music to reflect this?
Jonas: The style is there because we have our core sound that we’re very comfortable with. We’ve always been dealing with minor chords, dark soundscapes. The lyrics are in the same sort of vein as the music, so it’s been no different this time around. It’s writing songs, trying to squeeze out the honesty in those sort of states of mind that we try to describe, and just also be inspired and try to take the sound to the next level all the time. It’s something we’ve always been doing and the album is the result of that.
It’s an ongoing process because I write music all the time, and it’s something that I love doing. I still feel very inspired, so to me it’s not about sitting down and saying “Oh, we need to make a new album. I have to start writing songs”; It’s just ongoing.
I don’t reflect on it too much these days. It’s something that I do and I can’t really stop doing it *laughs*
Ez: But surely there’s a point where you start figuring out how the songs make sense in relation to each other in a certain way.
Jonas: Yeah, I mean… I don’t know. It’s like writing chapters in a book, I guess. And when the book is done you start writing another book. Every song is a chapter. I want it to be tied to the other chapters so that you can feel that the album is a unit, or an entity.
It’s hard to describe. Part it is because I’ve done it so long that how to approach songwriting comes automatically to me, and part of it is always looking for something new, so it’s hard to describe exactly how it’s done.
Ez: So it’s sort of a thing that because you’ve been doing it so long you’re very much in a natural flow state when it comes to creation, and then at the end of it you go “Oh, hey, we now have an album that makes sense.”
Jonas: Yeah! That’s how it works *laughs*
Ez: I can also imagine that without getting into the nitty-gritty of it, having the songs “fall out” certainly helps a lot when it comes to sitting down and recording them.
Jonas: Definitely, and I listen to music all the time. It gives me ideas arrangement-wise, getting fired from other people’s music. There’s always things I wanna try. Sometimes they end up really good and sometimes they go in the bin, and that’s also part of the process. When it happens, it feels like a bit of a failure, but it’s actually a good thing. To be able to have a filter, to be able to kill your darlings a little bit and say no to stuff that you think, maybe for a long time, that it’s going to work, and then one day you end up thinking “Yeah this is not good enough”, that’s also part of a process, and that’s why [it can] take time to make an album. But once you’re there, the album’s in your hands or at least your ears, once you’ve finalised it, it’s a magical feeling.
Ez: The other thing with taking time is that sometimes from start to end is a few weeks to a month, and sometimes it can be years ’cause it depends on what’s coming forward and how it’s presenting itself.
Jonas: Exactly. You can force yourself to a certain extent, like “I have to get started”. You can say it like “I’m gonna sit down until something comes up”, but you can’t force good music to turn up. That’s something else.
One song can take a year to finish and one song can take two days. It all depends on inspiration and how the song is presenting itself to you. Sometimes I’ve had stuff lying around for years and I don’t know what to do with it. Then one day I bring it up and feel like “Oh, this is how it’s gonna unravel itself. This is the whole arrangement for the song”. You have to wait to write them *laughs*
Ez: Has there ever been a song that you’ve written and presented that you were heavily invested in, but perhaps the band wasn’t?
Jonas: Yeah, it’s happened. There are songs pretty much ready that I’ve shown to other people in the band and they say something like “This is… I expected something else”. Then I go back and redo it or reconstruct it, or just throw it away. I’m the main songwriter, but then it’s also democratic because I always want to hear what the other guys are thinking, if they would add something or take something away. Because in the end we’re all gonna end up playing these songs a number of times, so I want everyone to feel invested.
Ez: In what way do you think Nightmares… takes things to the next level from Sky Void of Stars?
Jonas: Usually the albums that we do are a reaction to the previous one. This album in particular is a little bit darker. Maybe a tad slower. Sky… is more uptempo for Katatonia at least. It has a certain sound. It’s very flashy and nice sounding, which I love. So we wanted to do something a little bit different for this one so we decided to go a bit more morose, dark in approaching it. I think it turned out great. It’s pretty much what we expected from it and envisioned from the start, and we got there in the end, and it’s a lovely record of ours.
Ez: And do you feel that the album art, which from my understanding is a deer / elk-like creature, sort of on fire, with a bit of smoke coming out of it… do you feel that reflects the art of the music well?
Jonas: I think it does, and especially the album title which is what inspired the artwork, because that’s very nightmarish scenery to see. An animal, burning, just standing there, looking at you. It’s definitely something that could be taken out of one of my nightmares, so I think it represents the album, the music, the vibe especially, and the album title, very well.
Ez: When I think of the title itself, it feels more personally human than Sky….
Jonas: I can’t say that the lyrical concepts have changed at all since Sky Void of Stars, but it’s… well it’s hard to say because we don’t try to deliberately change too much. We have a sound that we love and want to expand on, but it’s not going to change. We’re not reinventing the wheel, so it’s a different chapter, definitely, of a long book.
Ez: I also imagine that, after being asked to analyse your own work god knows how many times, it can get a bit difficult.
Jonas: It’s definitely, because it’s not something that I really do otherwise when I’m being asked. Sometimes it’s a little bit overwhelming because then I have to start thinking about the sound of the songs and all of a sudden there’s a lot of stuff on my mind, but it’s fun also. It’s interesting to have to do it at some point, because otherwise I don’t do it really. I don’t sit around and think “What’s the biggest difference between this album and that album?” And obviously I do that with my favourite artists, so I would ask the same kind of questions if I had the chance, but I would also understand that the answer could be kind of vague because they don’t do that. They don’t analyse so much *laughs*
Ez: Then hopefully this is not too shitty a question, but other than what we’ve discussed already, what do you think that Nightmares… says about the human condition?
Jonas: It’s there to reflect on those things. What we always we do is look at the darker side of things and how it can feel to be inside something that’s like a depression, or just having a bad day, whatever, but that’s the themes that we’ve always been exploring. They are very human emotions being explored.
I think what we’re doing is putting words on things people feel at some point in their lives, or for a long time. So it’s just saying that being human, it’s not always easy. It can be, but it can also be difficult and we’re describing that and trying to make music that goes hand-in-hand with that. It’s a nice way to maybe say you’re not alone when you listen to our music, because we’ve all been there.
*laughs* It’s hard to pinpoint, but the human condition is definitely a part of what we’re doing.
Ez: I had a literature teacher who once said to me that music is the closest that we’ve gotten to describing the indescribable, so maybe that’s why you have difficulty pinpointing the specifics.
Jonas: Definitely, and that’s a very good way to describe it. There are few things that can make me feel as attached to something as music and lyrics because I’m a sucker for lyrics. When they blend together in a great way that’s just… well even that’s hard to describe now *laughs* but I’m sure you know what I mean. It’s bliss. Even if it’s dark and depressing music, it definitely gives you a feeling of strength because when it’s there and when it all comes together, it’s a matter of beauty.
Ez: Do you think that bliss also comes from performing music live, giving it the element of presence?
Jonas: Yeah, definitely. When everything comes together in a great way on stage; when I feel the band is having the perfect energy, that’s definitely bliss as well. When the crowd is responding to that, it’s just amazing.
Ez: So it also comes from feeling more alive when performing music than when recording and writing it.
Jonas: Oh yeah! That’s two different beasts. I love both, but obviously playing live, it’s all a matter of energy and it’s also in the moment. There’s no retakes. You can’t go back and say “Oh, sorry, I fucked up on that one. I want to try it again”. It’s definitely excitement and energy, and connection with both the crowd and the guys in the band. It’s unparalleled, I would say.
Ez: Being a band of older gentlemen, quite probably performing a bit different when they were teenagers, early 20s, how do you all approach putting forward energy in a live format?
Jonas: We always go on stage with the intention to do our best, and then it’s pretty much up to the night itself to steer us in the right direction. The crowd, the vibe and everything, because playing live is not always easy. It’s easier to make an album because, as I said, you can go back and redo stuff. In the live environment, you can’t say “We’re gonna have a great gig” before you go on. You can hope for it but you never know, and that’s a little bit of the charm of it as well, but it’s… I would say there’s a lot of factors that need to come together and click before you get that super gig. We always intend to do it though.
Ez: Do you think the fact that there are no second takes live might actually makes it easier to perform?
Jonas: Sometimes. If I feel I’m having a good night, then it’s easier definitely. And sometimes if we’re playing in broad daylight, stuff like that which takes a little bit away from your preferred environment, that will definitely affect me, but it will always of course push me to go and try to be better. But the initial feeling is very important to get the vibe, but it’s also hard to say. It’s all counting on a lot of factors.
Ez: When it comes to doing setlists, obviously there’s gonna be a bit of a pull between songs you’ve played for a long time but you still want to play, and representing the newer material. How do you go about finding that balance?
Jonas: It’s super difficult. With every new album release we add another ten, twelve songs the pool we have to pick from, but with going on tour or doing a gig, depending on the play time, it’s super difficult. I wouldn’t call it a problem, but it makes us think a lot, because you wanna represent what you’re touring for, but then of course you wanna play some of your favourite songs, some of the songs that you know go down well live. It’s a headache, definitely, but it’s a good headache because it means you have done things, you have created this and that, and people expect to hear certain songs and that’s a great feeling to know that there are expectations.
Ez: Have you ever had a situation where in incorporating fresh material, it’s allowed the room to add something in from the catalogue that may not have made sense previously?
Jonas: Yeah. Sometimes we change setlists on the spot. When we prepare for a tour, we rehearse a number of songs and then we pick what will fit into the set length that we have. Certain songs that we know are a little bit of a wild card, we’ll try for a couple of takes, and if we see it’s not going down as well as we hoped it would, then we’ll try to change it out to something else. Sometimes we have a song that we haven’t rehearsed beforehand and then we’ll decide we have to incorporate it, so we’ll start rehearsing it on a number of sound checks. When we feel it’s sounding good enough, we’ll bring it into the setlist.
It’s an ongoing process. It’s not always super set in stone, even for a long tour. We can always change it up which is nice. If you’ve picked a song that you can clearly see is not going well, then it’s better to change it and find something else that people will be more down for.
Ez: From my perspective, Katatonia has always been a working band in the sense that you’re big enough to have success, but not so big that you can’t take an extended break. Why do you think Katatonia has been able to successfully persist for as long as it has?
Jonas: I think it’s probably a number of reasons, but the number one reason for me is the love for music. I’m super interested in music and my whole life revolves around it. I want to create stuff and I just don’t feel like giving up yet *laughs* But then of course, the joy of being on tour, being out there playing songs and realising people are into it, it’s super rewarding. It’s an ego boost, but it’s creating memories not only for us but also for people. That’s also in the equation; to be able to touch on people’s lives. Traveling… there’s a number of reasons for it, but all-in-all it’s just inspiring, still.